Jimmy Wales from Wikipedia has been called the last decent tech baron. It seems like a flattering label, although I generally associate it more with meatheads living on yachts and feeding their flocks home-grown macadamia nuts; the kind of person you can find most recently drink and eat with the President of the United States and his coterie of MAGA courtiers.
Waleson the other hand, keeps things relatively low-key. Even if the site he founded, Wikipediaturns 25 this month, he seems more interested in fixing his home Wi-Fi than joining the performative power plays of the tech elite. He has also spent the last few months promoting a new book, The seven rules of trustwhich uses the global strategy and unlikely rise of Wikipedia to articulate Wales’ playbook for fixing much of what is broken in today’s deeply polarized and antagonistic society.
In this week’s episode The big interviewWales and I discussed what it means to build something used by billions of people that isn’t optimized for growth at all costs. During our discussion, he reflected on the messy human origins of Wikipedia, how it has been targeted by governments from Russia to Saudi Arabia, and the challenges of maintaining neutrality in an online ecosystem hostile to the idea that facts exist. We also talked about what’s threatening Wikipedia today, from AI to conspiratorial billionaires, and why it will never edit an article about Donald Trump. Read our full conversation below.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
KATIE DRUMMOND: Jimmy Wales, welcome to The Big Interview. Thank you very much for being here.
JIMMY WALES: Thank you for inviting me.
We always start these conversations with a few quick questions, as a little warm-up for your brain. Are you ready?
Yes.
What internet rabbit hole have you fallen into most recently?
Home assistant. I just started using Home Assistant to run smart home devices, and there is a huge community and thousands of things to read etc. So that’s what I’m obsessed with.
What is this community doing?
Troubleshooting. People are working on extensions to handle all sorts of things in the world, and it’s amazing.
What is one topic you no longer debate online?
I would say that I don’t argue with anyone about trans issues. This is absolutely useless. It’s too toxic. I’ve never discussed it, but I don’t even talk about it.
You’re just going to stay away.
Yeah, it’s so unpleasant.
Which do you trust more: Wikipedia or ChatGPT?
Definitely Wikipedia.
I had to ask. What is your favorite website or app other than Wikipedia?
I really like parts of Reddit. There are great communities on Reddit and great people. I lurk and read in the personal finance subreddit. There are just a lot of really nice people there. I’m always amazed by it.
Reddit is really having a moment. I find that I spend a lot more time lurking in the Reddit app on my phone because I’d rather read thoughtful conversations than scroll X.
That’s exactly it. It’s like a place with paragraphs.
And often very caring people. What is the best thing about living in the UK compared to the US?
Well, my family is here. I always say this about the United States: technology is in Silicon Valley, politics is in Washington, film and showbiz are in Los Angeles, and finance is in New York. But all these things are in London.
So if I lived in Silicon Valley, I would only have tech-savvy friends because they’re the ones who live there. Whereas in London, it’s much more complete. All kinds of people. So I like it.